Columbus Issue 1 – Mayor Coleman Meetup
June 27th, 2009
On Thursday June 25, 2009 several bloggers (including myself) were invited to Sandbox Columbus to meet with Mayor Coleman to discuss the Issue 1 income tax increase.
I’m going to link up Walker Evans recording of this meeting because I think it is well worth the listen if you really want to hear exactly what is going on – you can listen here.
My feeling about this hasn’t changed but was strengthened after having this chance to sit down with the mayor. I think it is crucial that this tax increase be approved by the voters. The health of Columbus directly effects the health of all of Central Ohio.
At the end of the day Mayor Coleman made the point that all we’re trying to do is to maintain the (already marginalized) city services but if the people of Columbus would be ok with having even more services cut then that is their choice; one available to them at the polls.
Early voting starts July 6 (I think) and the polls will be open August 4. My hope is that you get out to the polls (or mail in your ballot) and vote YES on ISSUE 1.
June 29th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Dear Mr. Miller,
I sincerely believe your support of the proposed tax increase is misguided and despite the Mayor’s obviously supportive statements. One needs merely to examine the City’s actual numbers, i.e. revenues and expenses, to see/learn that the City has far outspent the amount of money it has taken in and which has been done since the administration took office.
This is not due to some alleged structural imbalance but rather, not having the fortitude to deal–realistically–with a top-heavy beauracracy and in so doing, cut the fat. Between 2007 and 2008, for example, the growth of expenditures averaged 10.22% whereas revenues increased by 3.02%. In other words, for every dollar the City took in it paid out $3.38.
If there was ever a recipe for failure this is certainly it.
June 29th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Actually if you look at the city’s own numbers http://columbus.gov/news.aspx?id=19328 you see that overall GRF spending has come down, as has the size of staff over Coleman’s terms as Mayor. The city has also grown (both physically and in population) along with inflation and then an exacerbation of the problems due to the recession. There has been 27 years of no income tax increase. A 0.5% increase which will maintain services at the same level as they are today seems entirely appropriate and the business community in Columbus agrees, as do the Fire Fighters and several other groups.
My question to you would be what fat is there left that you believe can be cut?
July 1st, 2009 at 10:08 pm
The great thing about math is that it leaves no ambiguity and cannot be left to wide interpretation when all parties work from the same set of rules. The rationale that we are working under the same rate (2.0%) as 27 years ago and therefore have had “no income tax increase” is the same error people who look at real estate taxes and merely look at the millage rate and ignore the valuation face. We’ve had massive tax increases under the existing 2% rate as evidenced by the city’s own financial records. Every time that the incomes of taxpayers goes up, there is a corresponding increase to the city’s coffers. If you followed the rationale that the rate should rise in some sync with inflation, population, and/or geographic growth, then we are doomed to eventually need a 100% income tax rate to meet the demands of inflation. That type of logic ignores the fact that, just like real estate taxes, a rising tide (incomes and housing values) lifts all boats. Think of realtors that have operated on a 6% commission schedule for over 30 years. They get automatic increases because the price of real estate has steadily increased.
Naturally, both income and real estate values are down this year. That is why it is important for governments to operate efficiently and not spend in excess of both inflation and incoming revenues (as the city has done over the past few years).
The two key facts that I would like to see Mayor Coleman address that hasn’t been done are…
1. Why during his administration when rising incomes brought in revenue well above inflation, did he continue to spend far in excess of what was coming in? This is supported by his city finance director (Hugh Dorrian) that stated as far back as six years ago that we should get spending under control and retain reserves for lean times that are bound to be ahead.
2. The Dispatch and citizen groups are rightfully concerned about the full pension pickup for city employees. Theoretically, this can be beneficial when salaries/wages are kept at about 92% of market. All objective outside measurements indicate that the city workers have outpaced both the private sector and public sector. This is evidenced by a record number of city employees compensation in excess of $100,000 including some in the safety forces. In addition, the city employees pick up a small fraction of their health care costs. Statewide averages show that most of us, public and private, are picking up nearly 30% of the cost yet city workers are picking up less than 10%. I realize that many of these benefits are negotiated and may be part of union contracts but to ask citizens to pick up 100% for retirement and all but a token share for health care is overly generous. Why hasn’t that been addressed?
July 2nd, 2009 at 2:10 am
Your assumption is that larger communities don’t have different needs than smaller communities and that the growth in population and size doesn’t change those needs (or desires). Columbus, while suffering like the rest of the country (thanks to the extreme devotion of some political leaders to “markets”), this city currently still rates very well and continues to grow thanks to the leadership of the Coleman administration.
This idea that the marketplace is always right is so misguided. Who really sets the market? Particularly the requirement for paying for healthcare. You’re complaining that city employees health benefits are too good for them. I believe you work in some sort of senior healthcare realm which, unless you’re really removed from it, should make you clearly understand how messed up our healthcare system is. The level of healthcare available to city workers shouldn’t be brought further down, private industry et al should be raising their healthcare plans back up — or better yet we should nationalize healthcare and be done with it. This continuous chase to the bottom of the barrel is exactly what is wrong with extreme capitalism.
The fact of the matter is that there will always be citizen groups like the ones you’ve aligned with who are against any taxes. I find this to be totally selfish but that is my opinion and I’m allowed to it. Also it is no surprise that the Dispatch is complaining about issue 1, they’re like our own Franklin County Republican newsletter, I mean seriously.
You started by saying that the great thing about math is that it leaves no ambiguity but I don’t see where you backed that up with any precision. Instead you peppered in opinion and convenient numbers to try and “prove” your argument. You continue to have your opinion and I continue to have mine. We all see things through our own lens. That said do you believe that there isn’t actually a coming deficit of $115M? Regardless of how we got to it you do know that it exists, right?
I have to say I’m honoured that you keep showing up out here though, makes me feel like maybe my voice is being heard in the community – enough so that you feel you need to come out here and argue with me.
So if you want the last word again then maybe you’ll answer this question. What city services would you be willing to cut to make up the $115M deficit?
July 3rd, 2009 at 12:35 am
Andrew, Andrew, Andrew. I don’t know how you can read so much into some stated facts. First, I do work in the senior health care industry and can speak with some authority on the problems with our health care system. If this had something to do with the aforementioned debate I would have brought it up at that time. I never said anything to indicate I’m against taxes or for forcing everything to market so I can only assume you’re mixing my response with some others that might have alluded that. Perhaps you read the words about public employees being paid “above market”. In that context it is simply comparing what they make against those that make up the “average”. Maybe this will be clearer. The City of Columbus employees, when compared to comparable employees in both the public and private sector pay little to no contribution toward both their retirement and health care. That is not an opinion, that is a matter of fact. It has been documented by the Columbus Dispatch and called into question in at least two editorials. Also, I never said nor would I say to do away with a great health care and retirement plan. What I (and the Dispatch) suggest is that we move them toward an equitable position of asking them to pick up a comparable share. A good example would be state of Ohio employees that are required to pick up their obligation of PERS.
As to the health care crisis on a national level, nationalized healthcare is one of the options being discussed and please don’t try to put words in my mouth related to that issue. If you’d like we can open up a seperate debate on that issue at any time. I’ve worked with both Medicare and Medicaid for about 20 years and can help you seperate the fact from the fiction. I will close on that subject by asking you or anyone that advocates a government run system this factual statement and corresponding question…We already have nationalized health care. It is called Medicaid. Why haven’t our elected leaders, staff, beauracrats, othes signed up to participate in the Medicaid system?
I don’t know why you continue to try to define me as anti-tax or align me with a group. I’m no more anti-tax than you’re pro government. I just don’t choose to pigeon hole people into categories because it leads to the type of name calling that doesn’t advance any arguments. I’ll continue to “pepper” my comments with facts that support my ideas. I find it better than adding no spices at at and throwing words out in an open forum, calling it an opinion, and pretending it has credence. I too am honored to be involved with what I’ll continue to treat as a “dialogue” and not an argument. I don’t argue with people, only present them with alternative viewpoints and let them weigh both sides. Thanks for creating a forum to allow that to happen.
No desire here for the last word but I have an insatiable appetite to make sure that both sides get heard. When I read the propaganda presented by the city pushing for the tax I’d like to see both sides get their day. Hopefully, people reading this your site will walk away with a clearer understanding that some people propose giving an additional $90 million per year to the same people that didn’t manage the incredible increases received over the past ten year (point to note, that includes the Republican regimes that predated Mayor Coleman–mismanagement of money at the local, state, and national level is not not a Republican/Democrat issue) can and should be questioned.
What would I cut? I’ve already used up too much time and space and leave the question open to you and others. I’ve identified millions of dollars and brought solutions that can be implemented quickly without any undue burden on workers or taxpayers. Heck, folks I’ve worked with have already saved Franklin County taxpayers over $100 million (which like all the numbers cited previously can be documented at your request) without adversly affecting the quality of life in Central Ohio. You can’t expect me to do it all my friend. Let’s hear from others on what they think can be done to help the city balance the books.
July 9th, 2009 at 4:54 am
Aside from the cogent points on how the City has reaped the rewards from it’s existing tax rates for years, there is little to no mention of today’s economic realities. The reason the City has less money is because it’s citizens have less money – DUH!
And if the citizens have less money, then it makes no sense to take more of that lesser amount from them to prop up civil servants instead of private business OR, more important helping themselves live: paying their mortgage, tuition, clothing, food.
If private business (like mine) has to make cuts to meet the new revenue realities, then so does our City. As the Dispatch already pointed out, Columbus has more money going to public safety than any other city our size in the nation. And when I repeatedly see sleeping cops in running patrol cars in Schiller Park, then I have to think that we can easily do without a few of them — keep the ones who can manage to stay awake during working hours.
July 10th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Thanks citizen Dan for allowing readers to make an informed decision on issue 1.
July 10th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
And still I wait for someone against this tax increase to pose a legal solution to the $115M deficit.
Anyone? Anyone?
I guess what you all are saying is that Columbus is way better than it should be so lets see how far down we can knock it.
Where does this dilusion come from that public officials are constantly trying to screw the public?
Oh and BTW – If you see a police officer asleep in their car perhaps you should take the time to call them in. They have to check the cars out and those cars are numbered. Assuming that this is actually happening then how would a Sgt. necessarily know that his patrol was doing that instead of keeping the streets safe if it isn’t reported? Call 311.
July 11th, 2009 at 2:44 am
Wow!!! Such a defensive reaction might make one think that the people promoting this tax increase might work for the government. I read a number of solutions offered in this exchange dating back to June 27th and perhaps you don’t think they are legal. Also, you seem to jump to a string of assumptions about the authors–that they want to see how far we can pull the city down, like police don’t sleep on the job, and that concise references to the comparisions based on verifiable data are misunderstanding because the author doesn’t understand the difference between a small city vs large city–have nothing to do with the points being made. Andrew should stop the name calling and bring some facts to the forefront to make his point in favor of this tax. Liberals too often argue from the point of how they feel and ignore the data that doesn’t support their feelings. I didn’t read anything in the exchange assuming that “public officials are constantly trying to screw the public?” Man, you must work hard to incorporate this stuff into your head. You’ll have to invite me to this world you live so I can visit and try to understand it. Calling someone “selfish” because they question a massive tax increase doesn’t improve the dialogue. Hiding that kind of insult as an “opinion” is equally disturbing. Having an opinion requires at least a slight understanding of the issues. Just because you have an audience doesn’t mean your points have validity. That is a serious problem in this society today…let’s call it the Rosie O’Donnel Syndrom (ROS). Just because you can spout out a bunch of words to a captive audience and call it an opinion doesn’t make it right. At least Jack L, Citizen Dan, Bart bring some facts to the debate. Give them some respect and encourage more dialogue.
July 13th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Ok, so before I make my final response to this madness let’s clear something up – again. At this point I’m curious how many of these messages are actually from real, separate individuals. I have given Dan McCormick a hard time in the past for talking about truth, honesty and transparency but refusing to use his real name instead of a pseudonym. Well, interestingly it appears that Dan McCormick is no longer just “Citizen Dan” he is also now “Pat Dublin”. After the rather blatant multiple personality posting by Mr. McCormick here it made me think, hmm, how many other “people” has he posted as in this thread. I can’t say with certainty but it appears that a couple of these other posters were, quite possibly also Mr. McCormick. How can you chide me about having a “dialogue” when these are the tactics you use? BTW, I am a computer dork remember, and you don’t exactly do a good job of hiding your tracks when you’re up to your shenanigans.
So, for those of you who are real people who have come to the support of citizen Dan it might be worth taking a breath and considering just what that means. I always post using my real name. When signing up for services I often have to choose a pseudonym because Andrew Miller is about as common a name as there gets; but, I always fill out the profile to include my real name and links to my website so it is clear whose thoughts are being expressed.
You may not agree with a single one of my thoughts but they are always what I truly believe. I hope you can respect that. One last piece along these lines as well. As the owner of this blog I could have just as easily been deleting these comments that I don’t agree with, or not allowing comments at all, but I do allow them. I almost deleted this last “Pat Dublin” one because of the combination of it being a misleading pseudonym as well as very inflammatory. Going back to my earlier statement however I am here to show you that I believe that truth will win the day, and hiding that post would’ve felt dishonest to me. If this type of posting continues though you can bet your last dollar it won’t find a home on my blog – fair warning.
Alright. Now to the accusations. I don’t try hard to read things into your comments, you pretty much scream these things yourself – maybe you just don’t want to admit that you believe them or you don’t know that deep down that is what you’re saying. So, I’ll incorporate this into my responses.
First off is this constant idea that I offer no facts. The original post includes an hour and a half long conversation with Mayor Coleman where he presented, in detail, the facts of the city’s financial situation. He addressed the past cuts and savings since 2000 and how we got to where we are and what is being done about it. I believe he is telling the truth and I don’t see where his facts have been refuted by any of your facts. Your choice not to believe Mayor Coleman and your comments about how he has been irresponsible with taxpayer monies is a constant theme in these responses. There is an underlying statement there that you believe he is trying to take advantage of the taxpayer. The fact that there is such a negative view of government in these comments does suggest that there is distrust of officials and disdain for their efforts.
Next is your idea of opinion. Here’s Webster’s definition of Opinion – http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/opinion
I can have an opinion about anything I want. When I clearly stated that it was an opinion it was because I don’t know any of you (assuming there’s more than one person behind these comments) so I don’t have all of the facts about each individual, instead I’ve formed an opinion that people who oppose this tax are being selfish; they are being penny-wise dollar-foolish. Again, this is because I believe the facts as they were laid out by Mayor Coleman and his administration.
I also understand that making such a statement doesn’t forward dialogue but I don’t feel like this has been a dialogue since the start. I’ve been attacked as if I am an idiot or something who doesn’t have any “facts” but it seems that you have all just chosen to ignore that 1.5 hours worth of Coleman’s talk that started this post. Or, maybe you listened to it and decided you don’t believe him? Either way you have discredited me in your minds from the get go and have instead been talking at me, not to me. Thus, this has not been a dialogue at all.
Alright, I’ll end this on the “liberal” bashing comment. I have never shied away from being called a liberal. I’ve self identified with layers of socialism and communism, I am an ardent defender of democracy (I do still believe in representative democracy though, which it is obvious some people do not). More to the point lets look at some “facts” about the difference between liberals and conservatives in regards to our current situation (local, state and federal).
I moved here at the end of 2001. In that time period I have witnessed an amazing positive change in Columbus. High Street from Clintonville all the way down to German Village is alive and getting more and more vibrant every day. Downtown Columbus now has a nightlife, great housing options, and some really great activity during the day that wasn’t there just 8 years ago. Columbus has the #1 Science Center in the US, the #1 Zoo in the US and the #1 Library in the US. We are brimming with entrepreneurs giving Columbus a reputation for being incredibly saavy with technology and creative pursuits. All of this has been happening under the Coleman administration. This idea that the liberals have been wasteful with taxpayer money doesn’t hold water when you look at all of the things that have changed for the better here. Suggesting that we should further cut safety services, etc risks reversing this positive trend. Why would we cut them? Because the average taxpayer would be unwilling to pay an additional $15 a month to make sure our city maintains this trend.
Perhaps we could also look at the City of UA where I live which has had to battle referendum after referendum, votes to weaken city offerings, etc. In the time that I’ve lived here we’ve seen population decrease, median age increase, the schools start to slip down in terms of academic excellence, and a community becoming more and more bitterly divided. Crazy ideas like providing premiere services so as to maintain a community of premiere status doesn’t seem to float with the majority of UA residents (at this time) and we’re seeing the results of that too.
At the State level we went from being a state in the upper middle of the pack economically under the Celeste administration to then being under 16 years of total conservative rule where we dropped down to as low as the bottom 10. We’ve lost so many jobs and residents as a State that now we’re paying the price. Add to that the national/global financial crisis and we’re in an incredibly tight spot. Of course if we all worked together and chipped in a little bit of what we have (aka paid a little more in taxes) then we could lift up the larger collective instead of having such disparity between the haves and have nots.
On the federal level we see the past 8 years of conservative domination where we went from having an incredibly healthy economy to helping create one of the largest financial crisis the country and world have ever seen. The basis of the crisis goes back to the simplest of evils, greed. Clearly this doesn’t mean that there aren’t greedy people of all political stripes but surely there is a real slant for it towards the conservatives these days.
Then we could get into all of the ethics scandals, etc. but wow, I am way off on a tangent at this point. Sorry.
Yes, I am a liberal/progressive/whatever and I’m proud of it.
Oh, and yes I’m a government employee. I’ve never hidden that fact either. I work for the State of Ohio and I am typing this to you all during one of my furlough aka cost savings days aka unpaid time off. So please don’t accuse me of not being affected by this economic crisis. That said, nothing that I say or write out here has anything to do with my job. I am not speaking as any sort of agent of the State, I am speaking purely from my own perspective. Anything I do online I do on my time and from my voice.
I have worked in private industry, for myself and now for government. I am currently using my time off to try and get back to working for myself. That being said I should probably be working at that instead of continuing to blather on here.
I feel like enough time has been spent on this topic. I can assume that you’ll be voting against the tax increase if you can and you’ll be happy to know that I can’t vote either way because I don’t live in the city. With that knowledge feel free to celebrate or whatever.
I’m going to close the comments on this now. Of course there’s no lack of places you can go and continue to chatter on about all of this and maybe I’ll bump into you there.